Brawl a Coffee Break (La7) during the host’s interview Andrea Pancani to the economist Jeffrey Sachs, professor and director of the Sustainable Development Center at Columbia Universityas well as one of the world’s leading experts on economic development and the fight against poverty.
Sachs invokes negotiations in Ukraine several times, harshly attacking the US position and earning, as has been the tradition for over two years, the label of “Putin’s” from one of the guests in the studio, the journalist Davide Giacalone.
Sparks explode in the studio when the EU’s position is addressed. Sachs is tranchant: “Europe has a fundamental role in the peace negotiations. Just sit at a table with Putin, tell him that you don’t accept all of his proposals but only those on mutual security, on the non-enlargement of NATO and on the neutrality of Ukraine. The USA, on the other hand, only wants war“.
Giacalone objects: “The EU sat at the table with Putin and the then president of the day Macron he accepted this humiliation twice. And twice he was bounced by Russia against a wall”.
Sachs counters that there was no humiliation, adding that he knows Macron personally: “The fundamental issue is that up to now the USA has insisted on the expansion of NATO to Ukraine. In March 2022 Zelensky and Putin accepted peace but the US rejected the negotiations“.
“But it’s not true”, Bonetti arises, followed by Giacalone who, agitated, repeats in a loop “False, fake news.”
“No, it’s the hard facts – replies the Columbia professor – And this is the fundamental point. It was also admitted by Ukraine’s chief negotiator, who said publicly that the whole issue was NATO enlargement.”
“If, if, whatever,” Giacalone mutters.
Sachs continues: “The secretary general of NATO Stoltenberg he admitted it, but the US doesn’t want to tell the truth and many European leaders don’t want to admit the truth.”
“He has never done it – comments the journalist – But what does he teach?”.
“If Ukraine becomes neutral, the war will end – reiterates the economist, while Giacalone continues to mutter – This is the fundamental point: to negotiate. We need to sit down, understand the concerns of all parties and achieve peace, instead of continuing this spiral of escalation desired by all the warmongers. You have to spend 2-3% of GDP on the war like Germany which is on a war footing. And is this good for Europe? But let’s go. We need to stop and deal with other problems, such as climate changes And all other development issues“.
“This is not acceptable”, protests Bonetti followed by Giacalone who gives in to almost hysterical laughter and repeats several times “It’s ridiculous”.
The deputy of Action defines “literal fake news” the one exposed by Sachs and adds: “I was in government and what was said is totally devoid of any real basis.”
“It’s not fake news,” Sachs replies.
“You can continue to say that we are warmongers – replies Bonetti – but we are a State that has decided to support the defense of the Ukrainian people, invaded by a warmonger dictator called Putin, who has decided to invade a free State to start an expansionist action also towards Europe”.
“Who overthrew the president of Ukraine in 2014? – asks the economist – Do you happen to think that USA did they play a fundamental role? Well, that’s how it is.”
Bonetti and Giacalone arise and shout: “The professor is Putin’s spokesman, he works for the Kremlin“.
“Of course not,” Sachs replies.
“Of course yes,” insists Giacalone.
“Of course not, how can he say something like that? – replies the economist – I work for Columbia University. I only say the truth”.
“Yours is the Kremlin’s thesis – repeats the journalist – And it is a ridiculous thesis that offends the kids in Maidan Square who fought for freedom, the same freedom that you despise because you have too much of it”.
Sachs repeats: “The US overthrew the Ukrainian president in 2014 and that’s how the war began. We also know that Europe negotiated an agreement for early elections. They are pure and simple facts, it is not propaganda.”
“It’s Putin’s thesis,” shouts Giacalone.
