Renzi, the interview: “As Berlusconi said, in Italy the Center will win. Schlein? Only ideology”

He was the tipping point in the last regional elections, two days ago Macron praised him for the 18App and now he is preparing for the European elections. Matteo Renzi speaks to Tempo.

In Basilicata we saw the broad camp of the centre-right in which you too were. Can it become a structural alliance or will it depend on the issues?
«In Basilicata the Center was decisive for the victory. And this will also happen to politics as Berlusconi said in the last weeks of his life. Whoever understands this, wins. Schlein and Speranza, to get the twenty thousand votes of the Grillini, threw away the forty thousand votes of Italia Viva and Pittella. In a normal world the people of the left should attack their leaders: instead they accuse us of treason. But between supporting Bardi and embracing a grillino it’s obvious that I choose Bardi. It’s not me who’s strange: it’s them who are grillini.”

In the second case, on what issues could there be a convergence besides justice on which there has already been an agreement between you and the majority?
«Words about justice are fine, but in reality everything is at a standstill. I am very disappointed with this majority. Compared to two years ago, families’ purchasing power has dropped: you just need to go to the supermarket and the distributor to understand this. If there were a serious opposition it would attack on this rather than on the issues that radical-chic salons like. And on the European elections: but how do you start a campaign to say Less Europe? Twenty years ago, saying less Europe meant saying more Padania. But today it means more China. I want a different Europe. But we can only build it by walking towards the United States of Europe. Anything but Less Europe.”

After having forced Azione to go to the mixed group and having brought many of Calenda’s exes to Italia Viva, who are you aiming for now? To those disappointed by the Democratic Party?
«On Action it seems to me that the Osho cartoon published by your newspaper is the most effective political synthesis: we propose a political project, the United States of Europe, while Calenda proposes his surname. This is why he remains alone: ​​now the leaders of Action are coming to us, in June the voters will come.
As for the PD, it is clear that the reformists no longer have a home: they are considered illegal tenants in the construction site of the marriage between the radical left and grillism. After the European elections, many will leave the PD and we can all together build a reformist, centrist party, decisive for the policies of 2027.”

Are your PD and Elly Schlein’s the same party?
“No. We spoke to the nation, Elly lives on ideology. On June 10th we will see the difference between mine and his PD in terms of votes.”

What April 25th did you see?
«I heard a beautiful speech by Sergio Mattarella in the province of Arezzo. The Nazi massacre in Civitella is one of the least known. I remember when the Bishop who confirmed me, Monsignor Giovannetti, told us children why he decided to become a priest: because – witness of that massacre – he saw the parish priest killed and promised that he would take his place. That’s beautiful. Then there is April 25th exploited by violent people like those who insult the Jewish Brigade. Ignorant, ideological, unacceptable: those who attack the Jews on Liberation Day must be ashamed.”

In your opinion, is there a Telemeloni theme?
«Meloni is surrounded by managers who think they please her and do her harm. They made Scurati a martyr for a monologue that would have been seen by a million people and which, thanks to absurd censorship, reached thirty million. They are not fascists: they are incompetent. They’re not bad: they’re mediocre.”

Macron has launched an Italian candidate (Mario Draghi) as president of the European Commission. She also declared that she sees Antonio Costa, Kyriakos Mitsotakis and Mario Draghi well for the post-Ursula. Is it the sign of a Europe to come in which the concept of the national state is overcome?
«When the citizens choose the leader of Europe it will be a victory for politics. Direct election of the President of the Commission: no more bureaucrats’ games.”

In this sense Renew Europe is already a European party that moves at community level, what does this mean? Are you ahead of the curve? Should we expect the endorsement of a member country to have Renzi at the head of the European Commission?
«I am not a candidate for the Commission. And what’s more, my ideas are too disruptive for this bureaucratic Europe. I want to influence the proposals. Yesterday Macron praised the 18App, which the French copied. If we get a good result we will be at the table dealing the cards. But the Italian name for me is Mario Draghi.”

Let’s move on to the names. If you had to choose between General Vannacci and Ilaria Salis who would you choose?
«Neither one nor the other. I would and will vote for an Italia Viva candidate within the United States of Europe list. Ours are good and serious. And we don’t make fake applications: if you apply and pass, go to Brussels. European elections are not used to make fun of citizens: anyone who does so does not deserve the vote.”